MARK L. BAKKE'S
Night Owl Mk. II




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REPLY #70 TO
"RELIGION"


Boldfaced statements are parts of the original essay (or a subsequent reply) to which the respondent has directed his comments.

Italicized/emphasized comments prefaced by (R) are those of the respondent and are presented unedited.

My replies appear under the respondent's comments in blue text and are prefaced by my initials (MB).


NOTE: This is a compilation of a series of e-mail messages sent to me by the respondent in Reply #68i which refers primarily to the prayer challenge I put to him during the course of that response.


[First response, 27 Mar 99]

(R) Could you please answer these questions for me? I asked them to you in the last response, #68 to Religion, but you decided to refrain and turn the questions around on me. I know you have answered them before to others, but you are proud of what you believe in, right? Shout it loud!
(MB) I *have* shouted it out loud. Take a look at the volume and content of responses under my "Evolution vs. Creationism" essay. I certainly have no problem or difficulty in answering any of your questions, but do you really require that I just repeat things I've already posted several times? On the other hand, I have yet to hear answers to the analogous questions I posed to you. If you'll show me that you can provide such answers, perhaps we can evolve this (no pun intended) into another on-line debate on this issue that will add new material to what has already been posted.
    However, if you'll still demand that I answer them yet again, I could do so. Perhaps, along with that request, you'll send me an answer to the prayer challenge I put to you in Reply #68i.


[Second response, 29 Mar 99]

(R) Sorry, I don't have hours to spend searching through your debates to find the answers to the questions I am asking. Although I understand the decline to answer them since the answers in my opinion are illogical.
(MB) How do you know that? How can you make such a statement if you can't be bothered to spend the necessary time to research the answers? This would strongly indicate that you have decided ahead of time that no answer(s) I could put forth would be acceptable to you. I've already done my homework. Perhaps, you should do so, too.

(R) In refrence to your prayer challenge, I will continue to pray for you throughout the month of April and for the rest of my life. However, regardless if God answers my prayer in April proves absoulutely nothing as to His existence.
(MB) You asked me basically what it would take to come to belief in God. This prayer challenge strikes me as being the most positive proof that I could ask for. Now, since you claim that your God is omniscient, he would know the terms of this challenge. If you are doubting his ability to answer your prayers in such a way as to show one of his devout believers to be correct, that's a pretty good slap in the face for good old Yahweh, don't you think?

(R) God I think answers prayers three different ways: Yes, No, and Wait.
(MB) So, why can't he answer "Yes" to this simple one?

(R) In one way, God has already made Himself known to you in an undeniable way through His creation. Though you try to pass it off as a result of evolution, deep down I think you know the truth.
(MB) I do know the truth -- creation is not evolution is not creation. The rest of this was already discussed in my last web site response to you.

(R) Your heart may be so hard that God could scream at you and you would still deny Him.
(MB) Absolutely not. If I actually heard him, how could I not accept him? What possible reason would I have to not accept a God that I knew existed?

(R) I say this with respect and love, but it seems that you are so concerned with winning "the debate" and the ability to say "I win". Is there something deeper than this? Something that is really keeping you from acknowledging God? The death of a loved one? Bad experiences with Christians?
(MB) Just the facts, sir. Just the facts. That's all I'm interested in. There's nothing nefarious lurking behind the scenes. There's no empty void in my life. There's nothing but a desire to accept reality and toss out the garbage. I will accept absolutely *anything* if it is shown to be the truth and will throw away any previously held belief if it is shown to be false. No Christian can make the same promise.

(R) I will always be praying for you, but whether or not God answers my prayer in the month of April proves nothing. I would never say that God doesn't exist because it is obvious to me that He does. I hope it soon becomes obvious to you.
(MB) His existence is "obvious" to you in the same way that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy are "obvious" to young children. I'd say that you'd better get a pretty thick prayer rug, because I'll bet everything I own that I won't be getting any answer from Yahweh before May 1 rolls around. You see, I can't possibly lose on this deal. Either I hear nothing and I'm proven right or I actually hear from God. On the other hand, if I hear nothing by May 1, then Yahweh has forsaken one of his true believers. Either that, or he is more than a little upset with your manner of belief. In either case, you would seem to have a problem on your hands.

(R) "I have no stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the gloriours Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you, Mark Bakke, may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe."
Ephesians 1:16-19--little revision
(MB) Today is March 29. May 1 is the big day. The clock is ticking. My bet looks mighty safe.


[Third response, 01 Apr 99]

(R) You are always in my prayers! Keep your eyes and heart open!
(MB) I'll let you know on 1 May 99 if your prayers have been answered and if my challenge has been satisfied. I hope you're ready to accept the truth when that day rolls around.

[Fourth response, 01 Apr 99]

(R) I already know the truth. John 14:6.
(MB) That's not the truth. It's just John 14:6. Remember that Bible verses cannot be accepted as being "truth" simply because they are Bible verses.

(R) I thought you said you were open minded? It sounds like you have already made your decision.
(MB) I *am* open-minded. I am willing to accept whatever outcome results from the prayer challenge. Are you? If not, it is you who have already made your decision -- not me. The answer will be known without doubt on 1 May 99. You should have started praying for me today. If not, you are admitting doubt about your God.


[Fifth response, 02 Apr 99]

I *am* open-minded. I am willing to accept whatever outcome results from the prayer challenge. Are you? If not, it is you who have already made your decision -- not me. The answer will be known without doubt on 1 May 99. You should have started praying for me today. If not, you are admitting doubt about your God.
(R) I have been praying for you. I hope earnestly that God answers my prayer this month. But if he doesn't, it proves nothing of his existence. God reveals Himself to those who are seeking the truth.
(MB) I *am* seeking the truth. I've stated that many times. Just because the truth may not lie in the direction you prefer doesn't change the fact that I want to know it. If I don't get an answer from God by 01 May 99, the truth will be that he does not exist. He already knows that I'll gladly accept him if he demonstrates his existence -- just as any other deity would know the same thing. It is foolish to claim that one must first believe in God in order to believe in him.

(R) Here is a challenge for you this month. Say this simple sentence from your heart and see if it comes true: "Jesus, if you really exist, please reveal yourself to me this month and help me to see what the truth is."
    You have no reason not to say a simple thing like this. Will you do it?
(MB) Sure, why not? It is essentially the same thing as the prayer challenge I put to you. All you are doing is trying to shift the responsibility for the prayer's success or failure from yourself to me. Then, when it fails (as it unquestionably will), you can attempt to put the blame on me rather than accepting the truth of the matter. I see no reason whatsoever why you should continue to dance around the prayer challenge unless you have grave doubts about the power of your God to make himself known to one lowly human who would be willing to accept him if he became known.


[Sixth response, 03 Apr 99]

(R) God has demonstrated his existence to you in many ways. Creation, a self-conscience mind, the ability to love, etc.. reflect his attributes and man being made in His image.
(MB) How do these thing reflect God's attributes? Why is it not equally valid to argue that it is Odin or Brahman or Chronus or Ta'aroa who is responsible for them? Why is it not valid to argue that these things are natural results of the physical processes which have governed the universe since its inception and don't require the intervention of any other entity - divine or otherwise? To support your statement, you are going to have to demonstrate that all possibilities other than the Christian version of God are incapable of having produced the things you wish to credit to that God. You will also need to demonstrate how somebody who has never heard of your God can possibly come to the same conclusion that you wish to believe in.

(R) What exactly does God have to do in order to demonstrate His existence to you?
(MB) There are many things he could do. A successful answer to my prayer challenge would be absolute proof of his existence, for example. Basically, anything I could observe or examine that could not possibly have any other explanation that doesn't require God's intervention would qualify as proof of his existence.

(R) I am not asking you to first believe in God to believe in Him. I am asking that you will consider the evidence rationally of His existence.
(MB) I have. That's why I don't believe in Yahweh or in any other deity that Man has invented for himself to substitute for real knowledge. Let's face it, you won't consider anything to have been "rationally examined" unless an affirmation of God's existence is the final conclusion. You just can't bring yourself to accept that any other conclusion is even possible and you will not permit such a negative conclusion for yourself no matter how much evidence stacks up against the belief in God. *That* is the opposite of rational examination of evidence.

(R) Since when does God not answering prayer prove that He doesn't exist?
(MB) If he doesn't answer prayers, then why pray in the first place? If he never answers prayers, how do we know he's even there to listen to them? A strong tenet of the belief in God is that he does answer prayers. Why should he have any problem with something so simple as making himself known undeniably to somebody who is willing to accept such a revelation and who would instantly convert from non-belief upon receiving that revelation? I submit that God does not exist and will have absolutely no problem whatsoever recanting that statement upon proof that I am wrong.
    On the other hand, how do you know for sure that God answers your prayers? How do you know the difference between an answered prayer and something that was going to happen anyway? How do you that it is not some entity other than Yahweh that is answering your prayers. According to Hinduism, no matter what God you pray to, it is Vishnu who answers. Are they wrong?

Sure, why not? It is essentially the same thing as the prayer challenge I put to you. All you are doing is trying to shift the responsibility for the prayer's success or failure from yourself to me. Then, when it fails (as it unquestionably will), you can attempt to put the blame on me rather than accepting the truth of the matter. I see no reason whatsoever why you should continue to dance around the prayer challenge unless you have grave doubts about the power of your God to make himself known to one lowly human who would be willing to accept him if he became known.
(R) I am not trying to shift responsibility to you. I am merely trying to get you to open up to the possibility that God does exist.
(MB) I *am* open to that possibility. I am also open to the possibility that Odin, Zeus, Vishnu, Ra or any other of Man's concocted deities is actually real. I am more than willing to believe in anything that can be sufficiently demonstrated to me. I am the only half of this conversation who is completely open-minded and who will accept any answer. Why can't you just come straight out and accept my prayer challenge and accept the consequences of it? What's the point of all the shuffling and waffling? Don't you trust in the abilities of your God? Aren't you willing to accept that you might be wrong?

[Seventh response, 04 Apr 99]

(R) All other "holy books" do not agree with modern observations and science.
(MB) *All* of them? Have you read all of them? If not, how can you make this statement? Please provide some detailed examples of the failings of the holy books of non-Christian religions.

(R) This is enough to dismiss them and their gods.
(MB) The Bible also falls into the same category -- which is also reason enough to dismiss it and its God.

(R) I want to have as little faith as possible.
(MB) Then, why in the world are you a Christian? It is based *entirely* upon faith. It's doctrine admits that faith is the most important component of being a Christian. If somebody tried to advance a scientific theory that was as poorly supported and as rife with errors as is the Bible, the sound of the laughter would be deafening.

(R) It takes much less faith to believe in God then it does evolution.
(MB) It takes much less faith to believe in something for which there is not one shred of supporting evidence and mountains of contradictions (i.e., "God") than it does to believe in something for which there is mountains of solid evidence and no credible dispute (i.e., "evolution")????? I think you need to reconsider your definition of "faith".

(R) The question of someone who has never heard the Gospel is not an argument for or against the existence of God. It is a question of His nature and invalid in this case.
(MB) You are tap-dancing around a point again. The nature of God has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not anybody has heard of him. The question is whether or not somebody who has never heard of the Christian God could independently deduce his existence through objective examination of the evidence around him. If not, there is no reason to suspect that he actually exists.

There are many things he could do. A successful answer to my prayer challenge would be absolute proof of his existence, for example. Basically, anything I could observe or examine that could not possibly have any other explanation that doesn't require God's intervention would qualify as proof of his existence.
(R) I pray that this will happen soon.
(MB) I submit that this prayer will be just as (in)effective as any other prayer you might offer.

I have. That's why I don't believe in Yahweh or in any other deity that Man has invented for himself to substitute for real knowledge. Let's face it, you won't consider anything to have been "rationally examined" unless an affirmation of God's existence is the final conclusion. You just can't bring yourself to accept that any other conclusion is even possible and you will not permit such a negative conclusion for yourself no matter how much evidence stacks up against the belief in God. *That* is the opposite of rational examination of evidence.
(R) I guess it depends on your definition of "rationally examined."
(MB) Actually, this depends on *your* definition of "rationally examined" -- which seems to be "any examination that arrives at the conclusion that God exists". You also didn't bother to address the issue of whether or not you could ever permit yourself to accept a negative conclusion about God.

(R) It's hard for me to see how anyone could come to a different conclusion then the Christian's.
(MB) I guess you'll need to address that one to the 70% of the world's population that is non-Christian. Seems to me that you're going to have to explain why nobody becomes a Christian without having first been indoctrinated into the belief.

(R) Exactly what evidence is stacked against God?
(MB) Haven't you been reading my responses at all? If you have, this is more clear evidence that you are completely unwilling to accept (or even acknowledge) any negative conclusions. Why don't we start by hearing your explanation of why, if any "God" exists at all, that we must believe it is the one posited by Christianity and not any of the hundreds of other deities that are worshipped by Man? Hint: "Because the Bible says so" is not an answer.

If he doesn't answer prayers, then why pray in the first place? If he never answers prayers, how do we know he's even there to listen to them? A strong tenet of the belief in God is that he does answer prayers. Why should he have any problem with something so simple as making himself known undeniably to somebody who is willing to accept such a revelation and who would instantly convert from non-belief upon receiving that revelation? I submit that God does not exist and will have absolutely no problem whatsoever recanting that statement upon proof that I am wrong.
    On the other hand, how do you know for sure that God answers your prayers? How do you know the difference between an answered prayer and something that was going to happen anyway? How do you that it is not some entity other than Yahweh that is answering your prayers? According to Hinduism, no matter what God you pray to, it is Vishnu who answers. Are they wrong?
(R) We pray because He doesn't answer them.
(MB) Say what? Is this just a stock answer or does it have any actual meaning? Who is "He"? God? Vishnu? What sort of logic supports praying because they aren't answered?

(R) I was saying that He doesn't answer all of them all the time.
(MB) The standard dodge. I can understand a selfish or hurtful prayer not being answered, but what possible reason would there be not to answer the prayer I requested in my prayer challenge? Also, if the prayer is not answered, how do you know that it was even heard (or that there was anybody to hear it)?

(R) Who will ever be able to fully understand God?
(MB) What difference does any understanding of God make as to whether or not he exists and answers prayers and is as the Christians wish to believe he is?

(R) God has answered my prayers before. I know it is Him because He does things that I don't have the power to do.
(MB) So would Zeus, Vishnu, Odin, Ta'aroa, Coyote, Ra, and a legion of others. Once again, assuming your prayer actually *was* answered, how do you know that Yahweh did it and not some other deity? Also, how can you be certain that your prayer was actually answered and that what you prayed for just didn't happen naturally and that it wouldn't have happened in the same way whether or not you prayed for it? Maybe you need to give me a few examples of answered prayers that *must* have been Yahweh's work.

(R) Have you read the Hindu literature? It's not kosher.
(MB) Of course not -- it's not Jewish (*grin*). Seriously, what's wrong with, for example, the Bhagavad-gita?

I *am* open to that possibility. I am also open to the possibility that Odin, Zeus, Vishnu, Ra or any other of Man's concocted deities is actually real. I am more than willing to believe in anything that can be sufficiently demonstrated to me. I am the only half of this conversation who is completely open-minded and who will accept any answer. Why can't you just come straight out and accept my prayer challenge and accept the consequences of it? What's the point of all the shuffling and waffling? Don't you trust in the abilities of your God? Aren't you willing to accept that you might be wrong?
(R) I'm glad you consider everything.
(MB) Is there any other way? Why can't you do the same?

(R) I trust the abilities of my God.
(MB) You just can't provide any compelling reason to believe that he exists. People "trust" in all sorts of things for which there is no rational evidence in support.

(R) I don't trust human efforts trying to force God in a corner.
(MB) Only because such efforts force you to consider uncomfortable alternatives to what you wish to believe.

(R) I said I will pray for you. What purpose would I have in accepting the prayer challenge?
(MB) You would willingly turn down the opportunity to allow a fellow human being to come to belief in God and achieve salvation? What sort of religion do you practice? The only reason to turn down the challenge is that you really *don't* trust in your God or in the power of prayer.

(R) If God doesn't choose to answer, it proves nothing and you still need to show how it would disprove His existence.
(MB) In addition to what I've already told you, it proves that you don't even trust the word of Jesus.
Matthew 21:21-22, Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, 'Be removed and cast into the sea,' it will be done. "And all things, whatever you ask in prayer, believing you will receive".
    Therefore, if God exists and you are a true believer, anything you ask for in prayer will be granted. There is no reason for my prayer challenge to be denied.
    Also, there is 1 Thessalonians 5:21, which reads: "Prove all things: hold fast what is good."
    You have a golden opportunity to prove yourself and your God to me. I've already stated that I will accept any outcome. Is your faith so weak that you must refuse to make the same statement? 01 May 99 is fast approaching.


[Eighth response, 06 Apr 99]

*All* of them? Have you read all of them? If not, how can you make this statement? Please provide some detailed examples of the failings of the holy books of non-Christian religions.
(R) I thought you said you had researched other religions?
(MB) I have. I'm just trying to see if you know anything about them or if you just take it as a given that they are "wrong".

(R) Do I really have to bring out the contradictions?
(MB) Yes. That's the only way to show whether or not you actually know anything to back up your claims against other religions.

(R) The answers can be found in any apologetics book.
(MB) In other words, you don't "know" anything other than what a Christian apologist is trying to tell you. Do you really think that he is going to paint any other religion in any sort of favorable light? Do you believe that everything he says is true and not bother to do any research to verify what he's saying?

(R) Book of Mormon: fails archaeologically, no remains found of civilizations on the East Coast.
(MB) Mormonism is a sect of Christianity and is not a separate religion. Christianity also fails archaeologically. We've already discussed the Pool of Bethesda. As an additional example, the evidence flatly contradicts the Biblical claims for the destruction of the city of Jericho. The Bible is also rife with errors about cities being located in certain countries or provinces at certain times. Therefore, if you throw out Mormonism on the basis that it fails archaeologically, you must also throw out Christianity for the same reason.

(R) Hindu writings: teaches flat earth
(MB) So does the Bible. This is reasonable since everybody in those days believed that the Earth was flat. An additional serious error in the Bible is that the creation story in Genesis 1 teaches that the Earth was created before the Sun! So, if that's enough to scrap Hindu writings, it's also enough to trash the Bible.
    Of course, whether or not the Earth was said to be flat has absolutely no relevance to whether or not the deities described in the respective holy books of Hinduism and Christianity actually exist.

(R) Watchtower: translators knew absolutely no Greek/Hebrew, Russel testified to it etc....
(MB) Once again, you're referring to a sect of Christianity -- the Jehovah's Witnesses -- and not a different religion. If this complaint is some sort of flaw, why do you consider it valid to quote from English translations of the Bible at all?     So, your "evidence" that all non-Christian religions are "wrong" consists of two references to Christian sects and one barely relevant second-hand reference to Hinduism which I'm quite sure you couldn't quote. I hope you don't consider this to be a compelling case.

The Bible also falls into the same category -- which is also reason enough to dismiss it and its God.
(R) Exactly where?
(MB) See above and the previous nine posts comprising Reply #68. If they're not enough for you, I always have more in reserve. The sum total of all these problems produce a strong argument against the accuracy of the Bible.

Then, why in the world are you a Christian? It is based *entirely* upon faith. Its doctrine admits that faith is the most important component of being a Christian. If somebody tried to advance a scientific theory that was as poorly supported and as rife with errors as is the Bible, the sound of the laughter would be deafening.
(R) I do have faith, but not blind faith.
(MB) That has yet to be demonstrated. That also did not answer the question I asked.

(R) My faith may be a foot high...
(MB) Your faith in your God is only a foot high? Perhaps this is why you are so reluctant to accept my prayer challenge.

(R) ...but yours goes to the sun.
(MB) My "faith" in what, exactly?

It takes much less faith to believe in something for which there is not one shred of supporting evidence and mountains of contradictions (i.e., "God") than it does to believe in something for which there is mountains of solid evidence and no credible dispute (i.e., "evolution")????? I think you need to reconsider your definition of "faith".
(R) What is the best scientific evidence that convinced you of evolution?
(MB) Why do you continue to evade my questions? To answer yours, an understanding of genetics provides absolute proof of evolution. What is the best evidence that convinced you of Creationism?

You are tap-dancing around a point again. The nature of God has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not anybody has heard of him. The question is whether or not somebody who has never heard of the Christian God could independently deduce his existence through objective examination of the evidence around him. If not, there is no reason to suspect that he actually exists.
(R) It has to do with His nature because you are implying that God would send that person to hell merely because the person never knew He existed.
(MB) Even the Bible is unclear on that point (as we have already discussed).

(R) He can deduce His existence simply by observation.
(MB) How? Please explain how our subject could look at *anything* and deduce that it must have been the result of Yahweh's actions.

(R) If they truly wanted to know God, God would reveal Himself.
(MB) How can they "truly want to know God" if they've never even heard of him? Also, if one truly wants to know God, there would be no need for any revelation since that person has already accepted his existence.

Actually, this depends on *your* definition of "rationally examined" -- which seems to be "any examination that arrives at the conclusion that God exists". You also didn't bother to address the issue of whether or not you could ever permit yourself to accept a negative conclusion about God.
(R) Seeing as how there is no negative evidence, it makes it hard to accept a negative conclusion.
(MB) Have you even seen any negative evidence for the existence of one-eyed, one-horned flying purple People Eaters? If not, then, by your argument, you must find it hard to accept a negative conclusion about the existence of such creatures, right?

I guess you'll need to address that one to the 70% of the world's population that is non-Christian. Seems to me that you're going to have to explain why nobody becomes a Christian without having first been indoctrinated into the belief.
(R) How do you explain converts to Christianity who haver never believed in God?
(MB) Simple. Missionaries tell good stories. This is the same reason that people deconvert from Christianity and adopt other religions.

Haven't you been reading my responses at all? If you have, this is more clear evidence that you are completely unwilling to accept (or even acknowledge) any negative conclusions. Why don't we start by hearing your explanation of why, if any "God" exists at all, that we must believe it is the one posited by Christianity and not any of the hundreds of other deities that are worshipped by Man? Hint: "Because the Bible says so" is not an answer.
(R) Yes, I have. The answers can be found in almost any apologetic book.
(MB) You don't find answers in apologetics books. You just find apologetics. If you're already predisposed to believing what they say, you will not question any of it and will just become another robot for Christ.

(R) One reason God exists is because of Creation.
(MB) The question I asked you was why we must believe that, if any "God" exists at all, that we must believe it is the one posited by Christianity. There are a great many Creation tales from a great many religions which do not feature Yahweh. Please address this instead of spouting more meaningless one-liners.

Say what? Is this just a stock answer or does it have any actual meaning? Who is "He"? God? Vishnu? What sort of logic supports praying because they aren't answered?
(R) I meant to say sometimes He DOES answer them.
(MB) Fine. That still doesn't answer the question of which deity is answering the prayers and how you know that for certain.

The standard dodge. I can understand a selfish or hurtful prayer not being answered, but what possible reason would there be not to answer the prayer I requested in my prayer challenge? Also, if the prayer is not answered, how do you know that it was even heard (or that there was anybody to hear it)?
(R) Who is to say the prayer challenge won't be answered? It seems you have already made up your mind.
(MB) I haven't yet made up my mind. My mind will be made up as a result of what does or does not happen by 01 May 99. I'm predicting with a high degree of confidence that I will receive no revelation of any kind from any deity, but, if I'm shown to be wrong, I will gladly and freely admit to it. Your continued reluctance to accept the challenge is a strong indication that, deep down, you agree with my prediction but just can't bring yourself to admit it.
    In the course of continuing to evade the prayer challenge, you still failed to answer the questions I asked. Could you please do so? What reason would God have for not answering your prayer? If the prayer is not answered, how would you know that it was even heard or that there was anybody to hear it?

(R) When I asked you to be open minded, I was hoping you would look for more than just some miraculous appearance.
(MB) No, you were hoping that I would join you in abandoning reason and embracing Christianity. I've already told you that this one very simple thing would be the absolute proof that I would need to believe in your God. It is simply unfathomable why you should have the slightest reluctance to accept the challenge.

What difference does any understanding of God make as to whether or not he exists and answers prayers and is as the Christians wish to believe he is?
(R) Because sometimes we don't understand why God answers some and doesn't others.
(MB) I just asked you what difference understanding makes and all you did was repeat the same mindless statement. One more time, how do we know that God exists and answers prayers? It is not necessary to understand him or anything about him to have that knowledge.

So would Zeus, Vishnu, Odin, Ta'aroa, Coyote, Ra, and a legion of others. Once again, assuming your prayer actually *was* answered, how do you know that Yahweh did it and not some other deity? Also, how can you be certain that your prayer was actually answered and that what you prayed for just didn't happen naturally and that it wouldn't have happened in the same way whether or not you prayed for it? Maybe you need to give me a few examples of answered prayers that *must* have been Yahweh's work.
(R) Why would some other God answer a prayer I didn't pray to Him?
(MB) That doesn't answer the question I asked. You claimed that you know it is God who answers your prayers since he has the power to do so. I asked why some other deity (see above list for examples) couldn't do the same thing? You keep ignoring the precept of Hinduism that says Vishnu answers all prayers. Why? Can you show that this is wrong?

(R) Answered prayers? He has helped me through my struggles with sin, brought family members back to Himself, reunited friends, etc...
(MB) How are you sure that these were the work of God and not the work of the individuals themselves? Are you one of these folks who is so absolutely lacking in confidence in his own abilities that every success -- no matter how trivial -- must be ascribed to God?

Of course not -- it's not Jewish (*grin*). Seriously, what's wrong with, for example, the Bhagavad-gita?
(R) Contrary to modern science: teaches flat earth
(MB) Already discussed and shown to apply equally to the Bible. Is this the only thing that you find wrong with what is written in the Bhagavad-gita? If so, may I then assume that you believe it is correct in all other areas?

You just can't provide any compelling reason to believe that he exists. People "trust" in all sorts of things for which there is no rational evidence in support.
(R) How about the resurrection of Christ? Cosmology, chemistry, and biology all testify to the existence of God.
(MB) What about the resurrection? There is no evidence that it ever happened other than stories written several decades after the supposed event -- and even those stories can't get the details straight. As for cosmology, chemistry, and biology, you ought to know by now that you can't slide unsupported claims past me. Please give examples (in detail) of how these disciplines all testify to the existence of God.

Only because such efforts force you to consider uncomfortable alternatives to what you wish to believe.
(R) No, because people somehow think they are smarter than God.
(MB) It's extremely easy to be smarter than a God who doesn't exist.

You would willingly turn down the opportunity to allow a fellow human being to come to belief in God and achieve salvation? What sort of religion do you practice? The only reason to turn down the challenge is that you really *don't* trust in your God or in the power of prayer.
(R) The only one keeping you from salvation is yourself. I am always praying for you.
(MB) How can I be keeping salvation from myself if there is absolutely no reason to believe that there is anything to be saved from or that any deity actually exists which possesses the power to save me? In light of your continued rejection of the prayer challenge, I find statements such as "I am always praying for you" to be little more than meaningless mantras that substitute for having any substantive answers.

(R) Me not trust the words of Jesus? I think you have it the other way around.
(MB) Nope. It would appear that neither one of us trusts those words! Do you believe in what Matthew 21:21-22 says or not? If so, you have no reason to reject the prayer challenge. If not, you have no reason to put me down.

(R) I believe it is God's will for you to be saved, and I know that if I pray anything according to God's will, it will be answered.
(MB) I don't believe this. I'm asking for the truth of this claim to be demonstrated to me via the prayer challenge. We're now six days into it and no revelation has taken place. You're running out of time...

(R) But this also involves a third party, you. It is your responsibility, and your choice that determines the outcome. God won't force you to believe Him.
(MB) He doesn't have to force me to do anything. If the prayer challenge is answered successfully, I will accept him voluntarily, completely, and gladly. What you are demanding is that I accept him *before* he is revealed to me. But, I've already pointed out the logical fallacies in that demand several times.

(R) True love demands a choice, and choice makes sin a possibility. Jesus stands at the door and knocks, and whosoever will, let him open the door.
(MB) If a divine Jesus doesn't exist, how am I supposed to believe any of what you just said?

(R) You are a very intelligent man and I know you want the truth. I pray for you every night.
(MB) 01 May 99 will tell whether or not your prayers have been in vain. Are you ready to accept the answer? I am.

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